Conversation with seanegn at 2005-11-10 16:40:44 on LSchiere2 (aim)
(16:40:44) SeanEgn: What's up?
(16:40:47) LSchiere2: There you are
(16:40:55) SeanEgn: I signed online just for you!
(16:41:12) LSchiere2: I had a rather unpleasant experience this morning
(16:42:28) LSchiere2: so I want to share it with you, spread the "fun." Bleeter took the time as he decided to quit gaim to yell at me about how you lied to him and how I lied to him, and how gaim's been sold to google, and on and on about how upset he is that his work was "thrown away" "just so [you] could get some internal google bounty" for implementing google talk's voice stuff
(16:42:58) SeanEgn: As soon as you said "unpleasant experience" I knew Bleeter must be behind it.
(16:43:20) LSchiere2: note I don't think he's right. I think that you can and will maintain independence from google when it comes to gaim
(16:43:29) LSchiere2: I'm just passing on what I went through
(16:43:41) SeanEgn: He gave me the "you lied to me" bit last night. I don't really know what he's talking about.
(16:44:00) LSchiere2: he thinks your commit of the linspire stuff negates all his work to forward port gaim-vv to gaim 2.0.0 cvs
(16:44:39) SeanEgn: You'll of course recall last time he resigned it was because Tim decided to default Yahoo chatrooms to US, rather than let it not work at all.
(16:44:49) LSchiere2: when my understanding is that the linspire stuff is a hold over till the gstreamer stuff is usable. that may be right or wrong, that's just the impression I took from your commit
(16:44:50) SeanEgn: He's very reactionary.
(16:45:00) SeanEgn: By linspire, you mean linphone, right?
(16:45:02) LSchiere2: yes
(16:45:26) SeanEgn: Yeah, I wanted to use GStreamer, but it's not something viable in any recent timeframe.
(16:45:41) SeanEgn: The things I need from gstreamer simply don't exist.
(16:46:15) SeanEgn: And Bleeter isn't so much upset that I used linphone, but that I called the files *media.* and used the --enable-vv flag.
(16:46:35) SeanEgn: So he has to hand-merge his own tree.
(16:46:45) LSchiere2: I see
(16:46:51) SeanEgn: At least that's the impression I got.
(16:46:59) SeanEgn: He's not an easy person to deal with.
(16:47:16) LSchiere2: *shrugs* that's not the part he complained about to me. he complained about you, or rather both of us, ignoring his advice to use gstreamer, and choosing to use linphone after telling him the plan was to use gstreamer
(16:47:45) LSchiere2: he was very explicet that I had lied to him. something I took offense at
(16:48:00) LSchiere2: since as I'm sure you are well aware, I've essentially ignored -vv for some time
(16:48:14) SeanEgn: I don't think that's the lie he's talking about. You may have misunderstood, or (more likely) he may have been explaining poorly.
(16:48:19) LSchiere2: he got even further upset when I corrected him to tell him just how little I care about -vv
(16:48:43) LSchiere2: which takes me to the part that I really want to talk to you about, which really has very little to do with him if anything
(16:49:41) SeanEgn: I have, logged, explicit approval from him that I should use Linphone for my stuff. I talked all my plans very openly on gaim-devel, I committed it weeks before I have anything that can actually use it just so that he and marv can review it and pick it apart and change it if they feel it's best. I don't think anyone's done anything wrong; Bleeter's just very reactionary.
(16:49:41) LSchiere2: right now we are about 2 weeks behind on moving towards a 2.0.0cvs release. I'd like to release by the end of the year, it would make not just my life better (to finally have a release out in the last 6 months) but also help with our relations with redhat, ubuntu, and debian. but I'm not sure that's viable with -vv in the mix
(16:51:04) LSchiere2: we need to be moving steadily if not rapidly towards closing bugs and finishing what's undone. now we have -vv in the mix, which only you've tested, and which is already dependency hell for the people trying to look at it, on a variety of different linuxes
(16:51:15) SeanEgn: Naturally, I took offense to being called a liar and a sell-out, too. But just ignore it.
(16:51:25) SeanEgn: I understand.
(16:51:42) SeanEgn: That's why I wanted to get it in as early as possible---to see how viable it is.
(16:51:51) LSchiere2: I'm concerned. I'd like to have an idea that I know what the odds of a release are, and in what sort of timeline, and what sort of nightmare I have to look forward to when we do
(16:52:27) SeanEgn: Like you said before, you trust me not to sacrifice Gaim for Google, so if introducing this linphone code absolutely breaks everything, we'll pull it out.
(16:52:43) SeanEgn: Or at least make it something you have to --enable explicitly.
(16:52:53) SeanEgn: Like we did with OSCAR way back in the day.
(16:52:56) LSchiere2: *nods*
(16:53:04) LSchiere2: I'd like to take at very least that later approach
(16:53:45) LSchiere2: because it seems that FC and debian BOTH lack the full set of needed libraries short of knowing where linphone's site is (debian has 2 of the 3, I don't know that FC has any)
(16:54:15) LSchiere2: which really says nothing of our win32 users, who as you noted in the forum today (thanks for sticking up for me btw), are raising their heads still
(16:54:40) SeanEgn: Did you know that Herman ported Linphone to Windows?
(16:54:54) LSchiere2: I didn't. datallah is my only source of win32 news
(16:55:05) SeanEgn: He's my source of that news, too ;)
(16:55:06) LSchiere2: Herman is someone I haven't heard heads or tails of in well over a year
(16:55:25) SeanEgn: There's a sf project by Herman and Rob Flynn that ported phonegaim to Windows.
(16:55:33) LSchiere2: oh lovely
(16:55:46) LSchiere2: I hate rflynn sometimes. the rest of the time I think I forget he exists
(16:55:57) LSchiere2: that explains some of the phonegaim questions I've seen
(16:57:30) SeanEgn: Haha. Distribution on Windows is orders of magnitude easier than on Linux it seems, though.
(16:58:37) LSchiere2: right, because we tell datallah what to put in our installer
(16:58:56) SeanEgn: Yeah.
(16:58:59) LSchiere2: I didn't know it existed at all though
(16:59:21) SeanEgn: Ok. And if it didn't, I would have gotten someone here to port it. I'll be doing that for the Mac, so Adium can use it.
(16:59:44) LSchiere2: right, but that'll add time
(17:00:04) LSchiere2: basically, do you think we can freeze with -vv in the same time line we can freeze status?
(17:00:32) LSchiere2: status really has very little more to do. if both you and marv worked on it through this weekend, we could probably freeze it monday
(17:00:44) LSchiere2: as it stands I'm unsure since I don't know how much time either of you will have for it
(17:01:12) SeanEgn: We have two scheduled freezes. A "soft" freeze, soon, that will let us get big feedback and learn what absolutely has to change if everyone totally winds up hating everything we've done.
(17:01:26) SeanEgn: Then there's the "hard" freeze after which only translations and bugfixes get in, right?
(17:01:29) LSchiere2: right. for that to happen status needs to be at least marginally complete
(17:01:32) LSchiere2: right
(17:02:02) SeanEgn: My plan has been to get what I got in before the soft freeze, and then get the already well-tested Google code in before the hard freeze.
(17:02:16) LSchiere2: right now, based on the reports of people defying us and using cvs now, status is going to draw hatred. but the hatred is nearly all focused on stuff I know that marv and/or you wanted to do more with
(17:02:19) SeanEgn: Do you object to that at all?
(17:02:57) LSchiere2: I don't object IF you can provide me an equivalent of the gaim.sf.net/faq-ssl.php for linux users to find these dependencies with
(17:03:11) SeanEgn: That's easy enough.
(17:03:22) SeanEgn: Of course, nothing is mandatory at all.
(17:03:46) SeanEgn: And if it turns out it's going to be an absolute nightmare when we're finally ready to release, we'll pull it out.
(17:03:51) LSchiere2: sounds like a plan
(17:04:31) LSchiere2: I'm not trying to cause trouble you understand
(17:04:38) SeanEgn: Neither am I, you understand. ;)
(17:04:41) LSchiere2: *nods*
(17:05:44) LSchiere2: I only brought up the bleeter mess at all because it's the first I've had someone not an utterly clueless user do that to me. the release stuff we just worked out was my bigger concern
(17:06:14) SeanEgn: I'm obviously going to be working hard to get everything workable in a reasonable amount of time, so hopefully I'll succeed in that and get everything stable and solid and workable by 2.0.0. If I fail in that, I have no problem against disabling it.
(17:06:50) LSchiere2: if you could devote a day or so this week or this weekend to helping marv with the rest of status I'd greatly appreciate it
(17:07:08) SeanEgn: My major goal was just to get an API in 2.0.0, so that it wouldn't have to wait another 6 months to see the light of day.
(17:08:03) LSchiere2: *nods*
(17:09:43) SeanEgn: But if we get back onto a real release schedule, and I can drop my code in whenever it's finished without affecting the API at all, I'd be happy.
(17:11:22) LSchiere2: speaking of which, that's one of the things we do need to look at as we get closer to releasing 2.0.0. do we immediately branch for 3.0.0?
(17:11:49) LSchiere2: I'm getting a lot of feedback without even soliciting it (except from you who haven't given any) suggesting that we do so
(17:12:49) SeanEgn: hehe.
(17:13:50) SeanEgn: that would make sense if it were easy to merge stuff between branches.
(17:14:06) LSchiere2: yes, it would make such a track easier
(17:14:15) SeanEgn: The idea is to get all the CPWs to backport everything into 2.x.x from HEAD, right?
(17:14:21) LSchiere2: that was one idea
(17:14:40) LSchiere2: I'm not sure it's a bad one
(17:15:04) LSchiere2: An interesting one would be to see if we can reduce our dependence on a centralized repository
(17:16:01) SeanEgn: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sipdevel is the Windows phonegaim deal.
(17:16:27) SeanEgn: You really want me to make a decision on this, don't you? ;)
(17:16:55) LSchiere2: I don't think this decision can be made without you
(17:17:02) LSchiere2: which isn't quite the same as saying you need to make it
(17:17:43) SeanEgn: I always need to be careful in my phrasing with you ;)
(17:17:57) SeanEgn: You really want a decision to be made on this, don'ty ou?
(17:18:18) LSchiere2: yes. you don't hang out in #gaim much any more
(17:18:59) SeanEgn: That's true. I haven't Enabled it on my Gaim at work.
(17:18:59) LSchiere2: you miss a lot of the chatter that our co-developers and the various cpw engage in
(17:19:10) SeanEgn: I should.
(17:20:49) LSchiere2: being available is always a good thing ;-)
(17:22:01) SeanEgn: happy now? ;)
(17:22:13) LSchiere2: *smiles*
(17:24:09) LSchiere2: bug #1353489 is a perfect example. complaining about the global status imhtml, which naturally is one of those things still needing just a little work
(17:24:14) LSchiere2: (there is in fact a patch for it I think)