Conversation with bleeteryaluser at 2005-11-10 10:45:19 on LSchiere2 (aim)
(10:45:19) bleeter: did you note where I've said I've given up working on the 'original' -vv?
(10:45:28) LSchiere2: I didn't
(10:46:10) bleeter: yeah, well, I have
(10:46:23) bleeter: further, I'm not going to do any HEAD work, beyond bugs that just irk me
(10:46:36) ***LSchiere2 watches as accounts slowly realize they were disconnected several minutes ago and reconnect, pulling my focus each time
(10:46:37) bleeter: I'm not going to repair code that's been written by someone in a paid for position for the gaim project
(10:46:52) LSchiere2: fair enough
(10:47:08) bleeter: I'm not going to spend the extra weeks it'll take to get -vv/farsight/seans' crap happening together
(10:47:25) bleeter: google have just shat upon me from a great height, and when I said I'm upset, was told I was not justified
(10:47:43) LSchiere2: handling some people being paid and others not is a challenge that other projects have faced, gnome for example. but I don't expect that to make it easier for gaim
(10:47:55) bleeter: and sean as the *balls* to say it's a meritocracy, when it's clearly an oligarchy
(10:48:25) bleeter: *has the...
(10:49:15) bleeter: I have zero confidence that anything I do in furture won't be for want of a better term) lied to, stolen, thrown away and replaced
(10:49:21) LSchiere2: in some ways yes, and in others no. there is certainly an element of dictatorship in gaim. there is the same in the kernel itself, and in gnome where not all voices have equal weight either
(10:50:34) LSchiere2: in others it is a meritocracy. those who are around are those who did the work. if someone has contributed long and consistently and not been recognized for it, that has truly been an oversight, and its one I do actively attempt to avoid
(10:51:33) LSchiere2: and yes, I'm aware that warren mislead you with the patches. I'm aware that Sean set you up for failure with the farsight stuff. I'm VERY well aware that for the last two years sean has committed mostly broken and incomplete code and had others clean it up for him
(10:51:49) LSchiere2: I can't help that. there are limits to what I can do
(10:52:53) LSchiere2: I could commit more patches. the problem there is that the "Bug Master" description faceprint found really does very well describe me. I wouldn't be evaluating the patches, just trust the descriptions of them, that and trusting names I know.
(10:53:04) LSchiere2: gah
(10:53:15) bleeter: were you aware sean was chasing an internal bonus $ at google? were you aware sean used linphone *solely* because could do it in 20 lines with linphone? seems to me he refused to work with the community to do it properly with gstreamer so (I presume) he could get that same bonus.
(10:53:16) LSchiere2: s/just trust the/just the/
(10:53:44) LSchiere2: no, I didn't know of the internal bonus at google. I did know that sean's been tasked with nothing else at google
(10:54:07) bleeter: and he gives the community buggy code and tells us to fix it?
(10:54:29) bleeter: hence, if this is the 'support' we're going to get from google... I can live without gaim-dev
(10:54:49) LSchiere2: I do know that google expects sean to release 2.0.0 before the end of the year with working google talk. I do know that right now I have to spend my influence making sure that a release doesn't happen until its _ready_ and that the release doesn't say "with -vv" unless -vv is ready for me to support it
(10:54:52) bleeter: *buggy code designed for a hacked together linux system of his own
(10:55:04) bleeter: and it's not -vv
(10:55:07) bleeter: it's just -v
(10:55:21) bleeter: people think '-vv' and they think marv's gsteramer stuff, maybe farsight
(10:55:27) LSchiere2: right now, as things stand, 2.0.0 is going to ship with neither
(10:55:47) LSchiere2: I fully expect that to still be the case in december, I expect it to be the case when we release
(10:55:50) bleeter: personally I don't think it should. google should just have a 'seperate' gaim on their site to download
(10:56:00) LSchiere2: no.
(10:56:14) LSchiere2: if its called "gaim" or "gaim-*" or anything of the like, it comes back to me
(10:56:27) LSchiere2: for the same reason I got questions about phonegaim in its day, and gaim-claws in its
(10:57:44) LSchiere2: if you want -vv, things really stand no different than before sean got the job at google. you are going to have to make it happen. Sean isn't going to. He's going to do just enough to get google talk working, and then he's going to loose interest in -vv, because he had no interest in it before.
(10:58:03) LSchiere2: if sean's involvement in google makes you not want -vv so much, fine.
(10:58:36) LSchiere2: find some other aspect of gaim that interests you more, or find some other project that interests you more. I'll be sorry to loose a programmer, I always am. I hate internal politics.
(10:59:53) LSchiere2: I'm going to continue to do what I have done for as long as I've been in gaim. I'm going to continue to push gaim in the direction I think it needs to go (which doesn't include -vv, I'm sorry, that isn't important to me, though I won't block it either), and I'm going to continue to push for a more stable gaim, in whatever form gaim is in (with -vv or without)
(11:01:34) bleeter: old-vv certainly won't happen for 2.x now, as sean has trodden over our API *without* consultation. It was meant to be friendly. I can appreciate that there are many gaim devs who don't care for voice and video. However, they should be man enough to realise that others do care, and aid where they can instead of being arrogant, rude, blocking, or just downright arses.
(11:01:47) LSchiere2: what I do know is that we cannot really work against a cvs library without those doing so being developers for that library. it'd be like trying to use gaim's cvs without submitting patches. uber frustrating for all involved without any real gain
(11:02:12) LSchiere2: submit me a patch that fixes sean's breakage
(11:02:19) bleeter: why should I???!!!!
(11:02:22) LSchiere2: tell me when you submit it, and I'll break sean
(11:02:22) bleeter: sean gets paid to write code
(11:02:23) bleeter: I don't
(11:02:32) LSchiere2: yes. and he can be paid to fix his to work _right_
(11:03:34) bleeter: oh look, this is pointless. I can't even see that you can appreciate my frustration.
(11:03:35) LSchiere2: fixes not as in "makes his code work" but fixes as in "makes this code a realistic point to move forward from"
(11:04:02) LSchiere2: you aren't understanding what I asked for. I'm not sure I can make it clear
(11:04:18) LSchiere2: do you realize what I did when I committed chipx86's status code?
(11:04:27) LSchiere2: I knew it didn't work, I knew it broke all sorts of stuff
(11:04:35) LSchiere2: what I did was _force_ gaim to look at status _now_
(11:04:43) LSchiere2: I'm offering you the same
(11:05:14) bleeter: then why the *HELL* wasn't gaim-vv comitted for the same reason?
(11:05:22) LSchiere2: I'll break sean's code so that it works less than it does now, if doing so will make the end result, when it does work, better
(11:05:36) bleeter: this is just a further demonstration of the despotism, and reasons why people shouldn't bother wasting their time on big stuff with gaim
(11:05:50) LSchiere2: because I don't care about -vv. I don't want it to work, I don't care when it does. But I'm not going to support utter junk if there's a better body of code out there
(11:06:23) bleeter: oh, gee
(11:06:25) LSchiere2: yes, this is dictatorship at work. I'm extending you an offer to reduce _my_ headaches as support. If you can do better than sean has, then I'll break sean's work
(11:06:27) bleeter: tghanks for your vote of support
(11:06:36) bleeter: you don't want me to work on stuff that niterests me
(11:06:53) bleeter: you want me to fix up bad code written by someone for a professional manner? get real
(11:07:42) LSchiere2: I always let people pick their projects. you want to work on -vv? great. do so. you don't? that's great also. I have a HUGE list of other areas that need work. pick one. or don't, find a project that suits you better. again, I'd be sorry to loose a programmer, but the end is that people work best about stuff they care about
(11:07:44) bleeter: you're just a big a liar to me as sean was/is
(11:08:14) LSchiere2: no, I'm being honest to you where sean wasn't. I don't care about -vv, but since we are going to have -vv, I want a -vv that's as little headache for me as possible
(11:08:35) LSchiere2: what I'm telling you is that you don't have to let sean dictate the direction you take
(11:09:56) LSchiere2: I DON'T CARE ABOUT -VV. I never will. I'll almost certainly never use it even if it works perfectly. it is _your_ interest in -vv that causes me to tell you what I'm willing to do and not do for it
(11:10:13) LSchiere2: I'm not telling you to work on -vv. You chose to do that. I'm telling you how you can continue to do so IF you want to
(11:11:26) bleeter: ... by having theground rules changed on me again
(11:13:01) bleeter: I refuse to do sean's work for him
(11:13:11) LSchiere2: the fact is that sean's committed -vv code. there is now -vv code in gaim cvs, as opposed to only gaim-vv cvs. when its in gaim cvs, yes the ground rules change. when it was in gaim-vv cvs, then you could do whatever you and marv agreed on, which from what I gathered, boiled down to whatever you like. As it stands now, if I'm going to spend my time on -vv, then its going to be moving towards something that isn't a support headache for me. I think linphone will be. I think gstreamer _is_ but _might_ not be in the future
(11:13:42) bleeter: I told warren were to get off for doing his work for him, and it appeared that the sentiment was echoed throughout #gaim. I don't see why we shouldbe any different to sean. in fact, even more so given the conflict of interest.
(11:13:50) bleeter: Is gaim going to be bought out by google next?
(11:13:57) LSchiere2: fine. don't. what needs to change so that the linphone dependency could be swapped out by a gstreamer dependency at the swithc of a compile flag?
(11:14:27) LSchiere2: I don't see google ever wanting to employ me
(11:14:37) LSchiere2: I'm certainly not willing to move out to the west coast
(11:14:50) bleeter: the original deal was, forwardport gaim-vv 1.2.0 to HEAD, then do farsight, the linphone speex in gstreamer
(11:14:55) LSchiere2: and I don't think sean can or will kick me out of the project
(11:15:04) bleeter: 1 got down, 2 is halfway done... three *would've been done*
(11:15:15) bleeter: sean purely did this for $ reward
(11:15:21) bleeter: there is no other conclusion
(11:15:27) LSchiere2: fine. we've established he's mercenary
(11:15:36) LSchiere2: how do we move forward?
(11:15:48) LSchiere2: you don't want to fix what he's committed. I don't think he'll finish it for 2.0.0
(11:15:57) LSchiere2: what's a 3rd option?
(11:16:28) bleeter: haha, no the question is not 'how do we move forward', the question is 'how does gaim manage to not piss off the people who are interested in doing this right so they actually stay and do it right'
(11:16:43) LSchiere2: that to me would be "moving forward"
(11:16:48) bleeter: i dunno, you're the devs. you're the guys blindly following the project lead and ignoring the advice of countless others
(11:17:32) LSchiere2: if you weren't half way around the globe from me, if you were here in the office with me, you'd be hurting now. when have I ever ignored advice? when have I ever failed to argue about something I care about?
(11:18:14) bleeter: oh great
(11:18:29) bleeter: and threats of violence are *really* going to make me want to help you
(11:18:35) LSchiere2: that, bleeter, was an insult and you knew it
(11:20:42) LSchiere2: I told you. as things stand, I'll simply #if 0 it out and we simply will ship without it. and I won't care less. you are not here to help me. we are not having this discussion to help me. we are having this discussion because I'm willing to start a fight, to commit code from you even if it makes his life harder, IF AND ONLY IF THERE IS SOME BENEFIT FOR ME, which I define to be less of a support nightmare when a release with -vv does ship
(11:21:10) LSchiere2: so yes, "moving forward" is a prerequisit
(11:21:24) LSchiere2: whether we do that using linphone or using gstreamer, I don't care
(11:21:43) LSchiere2: but we WILL move towards something that works, or I won't waste my time and energy
(11:22:15) LSchiere2: you decide how much you are willing to work with sean and his code if at all. you decide how much you are willing to work with gaim, if at all.
(11:23:38) LSchiere2: but we WILL NOT continue talking if you are going to try to misrepresent my level of involvment in -vv to date or misrepresent my motives, which remain as I stated at the beginning of this discussion, make gaim more stable, and make it better for my use
(11:26:22) LSchiere2: now. having established that you don't want to fix what sean committed in the sense of patching bugs and fleshing out calls. and further having established that I don't think he's going to finish it on his own, I asked you what 3rd options we have. It sounds to me like you can't see any third option. is that a fair assesement?
(11:37:16) bleeter: Having established that you don't care, I shan't enter the trap.
(11:37:21) LSchiere2: fine
(11:37:31) LSchiere2: let me know if there's anything you do want to work on
(18:01:28) bleeter has signed off.
(18:01:52) bleeter has signed on.
(18:22:17) bleeter has signed off.
(18:22:35) bleeter has signed on.